new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

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reycycle
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Do you own a Cabriolet?: Yes
Location: Virginia Beach

new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by reycycle »

Hey there every or anyone. Just bought a 87 cabby, 800 bucks. drove all right when i test drove it and then drove it home. had a bit of hesitation on excelleration. stalled a few times at stop lights. shift linkiage fell apart half way home, drove with 3rd and 4th gear only the rest of the way. got home only about a 15 minute drive, parked it. called the local guy and got some shift linkage bushings( 10 bucks) went to take it for a drive and the darn thing wont start :x . i went and bought that crappy Haynes manual. thought it might be the fuel pump/ relay or both. put 12v to the pump and it worked. jumpered the pump relay leads and the pump worked. took the relay to work (us navy) the tron guys said the relay seemed to be good. the fuel injecton power supply relay looked rusty. took it to work , again relay appears to be good. got mad :rmad: and pulled the fuse/ relay panel out. inspected the wiring under the dash, some melted ground wires. replaced the wires. put fuse panel back in. replaced the vacuum hoses under the hood. :banghead: thing still wont start. help the new guy please.

p.s. getting a new pump relay tomorrow. maybe we will be in business.
any help will be appreciated.
SoCal_Cabby
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Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by SoCal_Cabby »

check your timing belt and timing
CalAltaDubber
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Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by CalAltaDubber »

First, Welcome to TRF.

Once you get the car going, I'm sure you enjoy it. (I have an '87 as well).

From your description, it seems you believe the problem is either an electrical fault or fuel supply fault.

I would try to determine which it is first. A simple check is to crack the fuel line at the output of the fuel filter. If there is a good quantity of fuel there, the fuel supply is probably OK.

The next thing is to determine if there is a spark at the spark plugs. If there is no spark, check the rotor, distributor cap and the coil.

You mentioned that you had replaced part of the shifter linkage, so I would check to make sure that all the connectors are properly on the coil. You may have inadvertantly pulled one off while you were changing the shifter linkage.

That's about as far as I can go without more specifics.
Good Luck!
Phil

'87 Cabriolet, "Topless Bunny"
'88 Cabriolet, "Posh Bunny"
'04 Golf
'12 Golf Wagon TDI
'69 Manx type Dune Buggy (New Toy)

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kamzcab86
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Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by kamzcab86 »

Bear with me here:
What is the car doing when you try to start it: Nothing? A click? Cranking, but no firing? Answering that question can narrow down what the problem might be.

You mentioned jumping the relay...
Did you jump it via the relay panel by inserting a jumper wire?
Did you attempt to start it when you jumped the pump relay? If so, did it start? As previously mentioned, if the problem is narrowed down to a fuel supply issue, there are a number of things the problem could be: poor fuel pressure due to a dying fuel pump(s), faulty relay, faulty injectors, clogged fuel filter, and/or stuck air flow sensor.

And, also already mentioned, double-check all of the wiring in the engine bay.

Welcome to TRF! 8)
reycycle
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:06 pm
Do you own a Cabriolet?: Yes
Location: Virginia Beach

Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by reycycle »

well thanks for all the good gouge. i got a call from the vw specialist telling me that the new relay was in. went and got it. had to finish a bit of honey do stuff first, but then plugged it in. it started. then died. this happened a few times running for about 5 seconds. even with the throttle reving at about 3 grand on the tach it still stalled right out. its not a very easy start process is it. any more suggestions. Oh yeah with the new relay in the pump primes the system as it should upon turning the key to on. will check out that fuel is making it thru the filter next. got a 4 day weekend and hope to not spend it all getting this car going.
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CalAltaDubber
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Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by CalAltaDubber »

Actually you mention something here that has jumpped out at me.

Good idea to check the fuel at the filter output.

I do recall something that if the engine is not running after a given amount of time, the power to the fuel pumps is removed. I am thinking that this input to the fuel pump relay may not be there (broken wire, open connection).

I am at work right now, but I will consult my Bently manual when I get home and will respond with an idea later tonight.

Do you have a multimeter?
Phil

'87 Cabriolet, "Topless Bunny"
'88 Cabriolet, "Posh Bunny"
'04 Golf
'12 Golf Wagon TDI
'69 Manx type Dune Buggy (New Toy)

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reycycle
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Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by reycycle »

well i went back out to try starting the white turd. it wont stay running for more than a few seconds. i cracked all the lines at the distributor, fuel at all. fuel at the filter output. fuel to the cold start valve. im using the haynes book of toilet paper as a guide. so i checked the airflow sensor, its not stuck and it is positioned right. didnt check the pressure reg valve cause i dont have a new oring, or shims. i went to on to the control press regulator. got voltage across the connectors but the resistance is only 12.4 ohms and the book says should be between 16 and 22. was going to keep pluggin along to the thermo time switch and wouldnt you know it the battery crapped out on me so it is on the charger for the night. i ordered a bently manual from ebay ( 25 bucks ) hopefully it will get here soon. i want this thing runnin so bad i can taiste it. my son wants a ride so bad. he's 8 and thinks its the coolest little car. help me please. :banghead:
A person who could give two shits cares more than a person who dosent give a shit!!!
CalAltaDubber
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Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by CalAltaDubber »

OK. Sounds like you have fuel.

What I am thinking is when you replaced the shifter links you in advertently disconnected something.

Acording to the schematic in the Bently there is a red and black wire connected to the ignition coil. It provides a control voltage to the the fuel pump relay. Witout it I think the relay will open, and shut down the fuel pump.

Make sure it is connected.

It leads to a connector on the back of the Relay and Fuse panel (Connector D, Pin 26). The connector should have two wires going to Pin 26, both black and red. the other goes to relay 16 (Idle Boost Control Unit).

Let me know if this works.

Sorry to take so long to answer, but I ended up getting busy when I got home from work.
Phil

'87 Cabriolet, "Topless Bunny"
'88 Cabriolet, "Posh Bunny"
'04 Golf
'12 Golf Wagon TDI
'69 Manx type Dune Buggy (New Toy)

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SoCal_Cabby
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Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by SoCal_Cabby »

so hows it coming?
reycycle
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Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by reycycle »

well i had my son for the weekend and we had baseball and birthday parties and his school has a fall festival that we went to. in a few years maybe workin on the car with dad might be fun, but not so much now. he really likes it and wants me to pick him up in it really bad. today i'll spend a little while trying to crack the mystery of the sputtering cabby. thanks for askin though. this sight has been wicked helpful. and i appreciate all the help.
A person who could give two shits cares more than a person who dosent give a shit!!!
reycycle
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Location: Virginia Beach

Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by reycycle »

FRUSTRATED I can only do so much with this freekin Haynes manual. i checked the wires to the coils and they seemed to be connected. i checked the thermo-time switch, as per the haynes and it needs to be replaced. so thats the fuel pump relay, the control pressure regulator, and the thermo-time switch that all went bad at the same time??? what the funk. I drove it home just a few weeks ago. all i did was give it some new shift linkage bushings. then some new ground wires then some new vacuum hose then a new pump relay. Help me please. I dont want to tow it to the shop. the latest symptom: if i go out there right now it will turn over and start, but imediately shut off. on the second attempt it will just crank over, and over, and over. why one time and not the next. and why wont it continue to run.
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kamzcab86
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Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by kamzcab86 »

Unless you've tested it and it's been proven good, it sounds as though there isn't enough fuel pressure. You may hear the two pumps running, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're producing enough pressure.

And, with these cars, fixing one thing always leads to something else breaking... even if it's totally unrelated to what broke in the first place. :wink: :banghead:
reycycle
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Location: Virginia Beach

Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by reycycle »

so are you saying that buying this car as a daily driver/ fuel saver was a bad idea? Can these cars be reliable? I own a 2001 Jeep wrangler, so I dont need this car. I was just trying to get a more fuel efficient car for work. VW is usually reliable. Have owned 80's erra rabbits in the past not fuel injected and one deisel. no problems like this one. if its not going to be reliable then i will just get rid of it and get something else. heres my progress so far: control press. reg should read 16-22 ohms, but only getting 12.4. thermo-time switch checked out good. checked the coil and resistance reads about .8-.95 on the primary, haynes says should be .52-.76 ohms. does this mean coil is bad. the resistance wire is a weird one, haynes says to check the resistance of the wire that connects the coil to the fuse pannel at pin c15. this is the weird part, the wire at the coil is black at the #15 positive connection, the wire that is pinned into the plug that goes to c15 is a brown wire. I believe brown to be ground thru out this entire car. could this be a miswired plug? the guy i bought the car from said the engine was rebuilt not long ago. could the rebuilder have wired it wrong or is there a different explanation? anyway there was no reading between these two points so i know they are not the same wire. any way the voltage supply to the ignition control unit checked out good. voltage supply to the hall sender checked out good. dont have a test light so i didnt check the hall unit itself. voltage from the coil to the control unit checked out good. and the response of the ignition control unit to the hall sending unit was good. does it sound like im on a path to an end or am i just chasing my tial. I want this car running. and am very determined. can i buy a wiring harness or do i have to go one wire at a time. I maintain multi million dollar turbine engines for the US Navy. I wont let a 4 cylinder VW take me down!!!!!!!
A person who could give two shits cares more than a person who dosent give a shit!!!
tolusina
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Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by tolusina »

reycycle wrote:...... it started. then died. this happened a few times running for about 5 seconds. even with the throttle reving at about 3 grand on the tach it still stalled right out.....

Your comments above indicate the car has spark and that timing is reasonably close, let's keep thinking fuel.

1st, don't spend any more time, money or thought on the cold start valve and/or the thermo-time switch, those stop operating as soon as you release the key from the start position. They help the car to start, after that, they do absolutely nothing.

Your control pressure regulator and coil resistance measurements are close enough to not worry those particulars either, besides, you have spark, how bad can the coil be?

The actual control pressures (cold and hot) are critical on a CIS car, as are system and residual pressures, to test them, you'll need a CIS specific fuel pressure gauge set, J.C. Whitney sells such a set in the $50 - $70 range, you might also try Harbor Freight.
---
Let's back up a little bit, does the frequency valve buzz continuously whenever the fuel pumps run, it should, and it should be very obvious. The frequency valve looks very much like an EFI injector, it'll be found on the back side of the fuel distributor.

How's the intake duct between the sensor plate/fuel distributor assembly and the throttle body? Take it completely off, turn it and flex it every which way looking inside and out while holding it up to good light. No splits or through cracks allowed.

With a mirror, look around the back side of the throttle body, see if the throttle bypass idle adjust screw is still there. If it's there, is it loose? These little buggers are a common problem, the o-ring that seals them also holds it in place, the o-ring hardens over time, leaks, the adjustment changes, worst case, the screw falls out creating a huge sucking vacuum leak.

Find the Auxiliary Air Regulator (functions like a fast idle cam on a carb) over on the right (passenger) side of the engine, down kind of low on the back of the intake manifold. The guts of those sometimes fall out, you might find those guts hanging by the wire harness and connector, another huge sucking vacuum leak possibility. While there, check the hoses to the AAR, those are known to collapse and/or split, huge sucking vacuum leak.

Of course the injector seals are rock hard and the holders are loose, CIS standard failure items, should be handled at least annually, how old is the car?
---
Reliable? Overall, I say yes, just don't read my current thread, mine's on a two week old hissy fit. She does have almost 210,000 miles and has given me lots and lots of 120 to 300 mile days over the last three years. Until her current and yet to be resolved issues, the only failure that kept her from going was a coil, a DigiFant I special with integral power stage.

Economical? Depends on whether you think 26 MPG is economical or not. VW decided to make Cabbys sporty, so they gave us close ratio transmissions, great fun to drive, but 3500 RPM at 65 MPH in 5th is not conducive the fuel economy. 5th can be changed.
reycycle
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:06 pm
Do you own a Cabriolet?: Yes
Location: Virginia Beach

Re: new member w/ 87 cabby. wont start.

Post by reycycle »

wow that is great insightful information. when i get the time tomorrow i will check for those sucking air leaks. the jeep only gets 15 mph so 26 is a step up. my motorcycle(2002 suzuki volusia) gets 50 mph. but cant do that every day. thanks again and i will give everyone an update asap. ps. are the fuel injectors supposed to be loose? wiggley? and how hard are they to pull out. didnt want to break anything. and also what is with the resistance wire thing?
A person who could give two shits cares more than a person who dosent give a shit!!!
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