OK so. I think this is electrical. because I had a corroded fuse block...which I just replaced...after already having replaced the fuel pump relay, because:
1. It died on the way to work, turns over, won't catch and run, for two days.
2. Towed home and sat in driveway for two days, then it started and ran around the neighborhood fine in the evening.
3. Tried to drive in the morning, started fine, ran about 2 minutes, then died, no restart. (this is really the second time, the first time, I replaced the FP relay)
4. Replaced fuel pump (lambda) relay.
5. Same deal.
6. Replaced fuse block. Ran around town just great.
7. See 3.
Rinse, lather, repeat. Runs at night, dies in the morning. Something happening in the cold start relay, maybe? If so, why would it run great, then die after 2 minutes in the morning? Seen anything like this before.
*note certain urgency in this post.* waaaah.
Thanks for any help or experience with this kind of deal.
PS: new name, not really a new guy, can't find my old username and password. lol
Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly"
Moderators: kamzcab86, CalAltaDubber
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jahB
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Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly"
Last edited by jahB on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jahB
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Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingl
PS: 1984 Rabbit convertible, 1.8L CIS, 6 speed, AKA "Raggit".
Last edited by jahB on Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jahB
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Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
By the way, when I say it starts right up (when it DOES) I mean, immediately upon turning the key, and that it runs exceptionally well when it DOES run. Both fuel pumps have been replaced. It did both mornings it started and died within a couple of minutes, as well, and when it started, ran and died on the way to work (at about 4 miles at freeway speed, in the left hand lane....) When it dies, it dies like you shut the key off, and will not even try to start again.....for at least several hours.
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Briano1234
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Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
Have you replaced the Grounds wires from the battery to the Frame and from the Frame to the engine/tranny?
I have a car like this once, and it was the Ground wire...
Have you thought about changing your Ignitions switch............
I have a car like this once, and it was the Ground wire...
Have you thought about changing your Ignitions switch............
Briano
Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click....
Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click....
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jahB
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Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
Whoa! I hadn't considered the ground wires. Thanks, good thinking. I replaced the ignition switch last year, so it should be good, though it's anbother place I could look......if I wanted to tear it apart again. LOL I'll check the grounds.
So in your experience it was also intermittent? Weird, but it makes sense in a VW kind of way.
So in your experience it was also intermittent? Weird, but it makes sense in a VW kind of way.
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kamzcab86
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Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
Don't confuse the two: You have both a fuel pump relay and a fuel injection power supply (aka Lambda) relay: http://www.cabby-info.com/images/Electr ... ePanel.png . If you replace the Lambda relay, but not the fuel pump relay, that could be the problem. The FP relay could be overheating, which, when it does, shuts off power to the fuel pumps.jahB wrote: 3. (this is really the second time, the first time, I replaced the FP relay)
4. Replaced fuel pump (lambda) relay.
Since the relay panel was corroded, it's quite possible the relays are corroded as well. Did you check the relays? If not, do it. Any that are corroded, rusted, etc. replace them.
Make sure all electrical connections related to the fuel system are tight, intact, clean, etc. It sounds like a fuel issue (which could be electrically-related).
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jahB
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Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
I did replace both the lambda and the FP relays. As it's (finally) after work today, I'm about to pull the panel down and check all the connections at the back.
When replacing the panel, I had to replace two connectors (unlrelated to fuel) that were too loose to stay connected.. these were the only ones that gave me that problem, but I'm guessing (hoping) to find the same such condition on other (another) wire at the back. I'll also check whether the corrosion on the panel migrated into/onto the FP relay, which I replaced with the fuel pumps....a while back. It's possible. The way it's dying, it really does seem as though something is just coming disconnected, or as you say, heating up to a point at which it shorts to ground or some such.
Thanks for the input. I've been thinking about it all day. LOL
When replacing the panel, I had to replace two connectors (unlrelated to fuel) that were too loose to stay connected.. these were the only ones that gave me that problem, but I'm guessing (hoping) to find the same such condition on other (another) wire at the back. I'll also check whether the corrosion on the panel migrated into/onto the FP relay, which I replaced with the fuel pumps....a while back. It's possible. The way it's dying, it really does seem as though something is just coming disconnected, or as you say, heating up to a point at which it shorts to ground or some such.
Thanks for the input. I've been thinking about it all day. LOL
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jahB
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Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
More interesting....
So, I looked at the cable from the battery to the frame...no apparent problem there. I was also checking wires generally, and decided to disconnect the dual wire connector from the coil, happened that the key was in the on position, and I heard what I take to be the frequency valve "buzz" for a few seconds after re-connecting it, as it does when I turn the key on....normally(?).
Anyway, just because I was going to go turn the key off anyway, I went ahead and turned the key to start, and lo and behold, it started and ran. for a while. Repeated the procedure, and it started and ran...until I throttled it up a few times, at which point it died again. It tried to start once or twice after that, but with no more than an almost "tickover" no more. Got dark, so I'm inside posting this and reading my bentleys to find out how the frequency valve works, etc.. I pulled the stabilizer bar, but have yet to check the resistance across the frequency valve yet. Will do that, but I have homework to do tonight, so it has to wait.
BTW: Both relays work fine when the key is turned on....felt them both click, and each time it's run, the other night and tonight, they worked fine, and are both new.
Just to be thorough, I happened to notice at certain points that I was getting a small "static" shock on the door as I got in and out during these procedures.....pointing to a probable short(?). Don't mean to be clutching at straws....just something I noticed. I haven't checked the Engine to Chassis Ground yet, but given how it's acting, it's suspect, as noted above.
Thanks for any mental cycles you burn on this.
So, I looked at the cable from the battery to the frame...no apparent problem there. I was also checking wires generally, and decided to disconnect the dual wire connector from the coil, happened that the key was in the on position, and I heard what I take to be the frequency valve "buzz" for a few seconds after re-connecting it, as it does when I turn the key on....normally(?).
Anyway, just because I was going to go turn the key off anyway, I went ahead and turned the key to start, and lo and behold, it started and ran. for a while. Repeated the procedure, and it started and ran...until I throttled it up a few times, at which point it died again. It tried to start once or twice after that, but with no more than an almost "tickover" no more. Got dark, so I'm inside posting this and reading my bentleys to find out how the frequency valve works, etc.. I pulled the stabilizer bar, but have yet to check the resistance across the frequency valve yet. Will do that, but I have homework to do tonight, so it has to wait.
BTW: Both relays work fine when the key is turned on....felt them both click, and each time it's run, the other night and tonight, they worked fine, and are both new.
Just to be thorough, I happened to notice at certain points that I was getting a small "static" shock on the door as I got in and out during these procedures.....pointing to a probable short(?). Don't mean to be clutching at straws....just something I noticed. I haven't checked the Engine to Chassis Ground yet, but given how it's acting, it's suspect, as noted above.
Thanks for any mental cycles you burn on this.
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Briano1234
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Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
Just Because the Cables look good don't mean they are.
Getting a shock when you open the door would indicate that you have a speaker wire, or a door open switch that is flaky.
It isn't normal.
Do you have an after market alarm? I have seen a lot of issues caused by them.
Getting a shock when you open the door would indicate that you have a speaker wire, or a door open switch that is flaky.
It isn't normal.
Do you have an after market alarm? I have seen a lot of issues caused by them.
Briano
Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click....
Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click....
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jahB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:16 pm
- What year is your cabby?: 1984
- Do you own a Cabriolet?: Yes
Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
Yeah, could be both, the speaker wire is spliced and needs to be re-run, and the switch for the door is suspect too. Thanks!
I'll get the meter on the ground wire when I go back out tomorrow to check the engine to chassis....and be prepared to order both new ones. I think you may be right, especially given how everything otherwise runs really well....when it's working.
As nice as the rabbit is, the PO was a little less than fastidious/skilled, as I've found with several small oversights/compromises that indicate his willingness to tolerate less than what was really necessary to make it right. Like a busted clutch cable guide replaced by a hose clamp, a twisted off speedo cable connector, torn off air pipe into the air box, stiff like that. It runs great, but it's just not perfect. Would the guy have left a bad, worn ground cable in place, you betcha. Might even have got a "new one" from a pick a part...
I'll get the meter on the ground wire when I go back out tomorrow to check the engine to chassis....and be prepared to order both new ones. I think you may be right, especially given how everything otherwise runs really well....when it's working.
As nice as the rabbit is, the PO was a little less than fastidious/skilled, as I've found with several small oversights/compromises that indicate his willingness to tolerate less than what was really necessary to make it right. Like a busted clutch cable guide replaced by a hose clamp, a twisted off speedo cable connector, torn off air pipe into the air box, stiff like that. It runs great, but it's just not perfect. Would the guy have left a bad, worn ground cable in place, you betcha. Might even have got a "new one" from a pick a part...
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Briano1234
- Whats that smell?
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- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:45 am
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Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
You don't need to order cables, just take your old one off, that is from the battery to the frame and from the frame to the engine.
Measure the distance from the batter to the frame, then from the frame to the engine.
Buy a off the shelf replacement from the auto jobber of your choice, you will buy a battery to frame, and a frame to frame jumper.
Just attach both to the frame.
Like this:
Measure the distance from the batter to the frame, then from the frame to the engine.
Buy a off the shelf replacement from the auto jobber of your choice, you will buy a battery to frame, and a frame to frame jumper.
Just attach both to the frame.
Like this:
Briano
Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click....
Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click....
-
jahB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:16 pm
- What year is your cabby?: 1984
- Do you own a Cabriolet?: Yes
Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
Okaaaay.....this is beginning to look like another of the PO's "shortcuts".
Noting that the Bentley's is clear the the ground strap should go from X - the battery to Y, the body, and then to Z the engine, the car has one cable, from X the battery, directly to Z, the engine (trans, actually) and no where at all from there. SO, do we think this could be the source of our problem? Maybe. Maybe not. Doesn't 'splain how it ever worked right, exept that maybe there was some sort of grounding going on that was intermittent, and suddenly absent, I guess. Off to the FLAPS to get a cable with lugs on both ends... Bentley's doesn't say where to ground to on the body, but the most convenient place looks to be under the nut for the Neuspeed stabilizer, at least I can see it and clean it.
Any inputs are welcome!
Thanks some more!
Noting that the Bentley's is clear the the ground strap should go from X - the battery to Y, the body, and then to Z the engine, the car has one cable, from X the battery, directly to Z, the engine (trans, actually) and no where at all from there. SO, do we think this could be the source of our problem? Maybe. Maybe not. Doesn't 'splain how it ever worked right, exept that maybe there was some sort of grounding going on that was intermittent, and suddenly absent, I guess. Off to the FLAPS to get a cable with lugs on both ends... Bentley's doesn't say where to ground to on the body, but the most convenient place looks to be under the nut for the Neuspeed stabilizer, at least I can see it and clean it.
Any inputs are welcome!
Thanks some more!
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jahB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:16 pm
- What year is your cabby?: 1984
- Do you own a Cabriolet?: Yes
Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
Installed proper grounding, seems to run great. I'll kow more in the morning if it keeps running. I'll post the update. Thanks again guys.
J
J
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Briano1234
- Whats that smell?
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Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
Being Well Grounded is a good thing for cars and people.... 
I learned that many years ago....
I learned that many years ago....
Briano
Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click....
Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click....
-
jahB
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:16 pm
- What year is your cabby?: 1984
- Do you own a Cabriolet?: Yes
Re: Cabby runs at night, DIES in the morning, "interestingly
Woooosaaaah.
Indeed. Makes all the difference. What a funny thing. It ran fine until just a few weeks ago, for over a year, all kinds of weather, bad fuse block and all...the suddenly started not liking to run. I'm assuming there had to have been some kind of "unauthorized" grounding going on that allowed everything to be temporarily wonderful, and it just stopped being wonderful of late. These are things that needed doing anyway, so it's all good. I just wish it hadn't stranded me a couple of times before we fixed it.
All is well with us now. On to replacing the left front axle, then I can start thinking about reupholstery and unecessarily replacing a reasonably good convertible top, just cause I want it look more gooder. Here's a snap of Raggit, just for kicks.
Indeed. Makes all the difference. What a funny thing. It ran fine until just a few weeks ago, for over a year, all kinds of weather, bad fuse block and all...the suddenly started not liking to run. I'm assuming there had to have been some kind of "unauthorized" grounding going on that allowed everything to be temporarily wonderful, and it just stopped being wonderful of late. These are things that needed doing anyway, so it's all good. I just wish it hadn't stranded me a couple of times before we fixed it.
All is well with us now. On to replacing the left front axle, then I can start thinking about reupholstery and unecessarily replacing a reasonably good convertible top, just cause I want it look more gooder. Here's a snap of Raggit, just for kicks.