New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

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MrTea
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:37 pm
What year is your cabby?: 1985
Do you own a Cabriolet?: Yes
Location: Van Nuys, CA

New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by MrTea »

Hello everyone! My name is Ian, Im from Southern California. I've been snooping around here for a while now and this is defiantly the place to be.. It seems my car has finally found a place where it fits in. The Cabby's over at that VW Vortex place scare me... :screwy:

I own a 5-Speed 1985 Volkswagen Cabriolet - I bought it this past September for $950. It runs! My dad and I have put a little work into it since then - replaced a lot of the shifter parts, had some oil leaks fixed, minor things. We've been doing our best to get it looking pretty, as it was a bit beat up - New wheels/tires, door panels, bumpers, badges, kneebar/dash, instrument cluster, locks/handles, etc. We have a carpet kit ready to install as well!

Its my first time driving a stick, but I've got it down now that I've been driving it for a couple months.

I've been reluctant to post because I know my post is worthless without some nice pictures... I've been procrastinating and I've only got one junky cellphone photo to show for now. I promise to post some more after she's had a nice bath!
cp_cabby.jpg
Ive recently noticed that the car has been acting up after I give it a "warm" start. If I stop and get back in around an hour or so later, the RPMs jump up and down like so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8HZiNKINkU - Im not doing anything at all in that video, the car is parked and im not touching the gas (although it sounds as though I am).

Pressing on the gas makes it stop jumping, but the problem comes back as soon as I let off. It drives fine, just does this every time I stop or idle. Again, this only happens after a "warm start". The car has no issues at all when I fire it up in the morning, or when I leave to go home after work.

Another thing I've noticed is that the oil light comes on whenever I get around or below 20-15 RPMs (you can see this in the video as well) - I've changed the oil (20/50) and the oil filter - but neither have fixed it :| This happens all the time, not just with a warm start.

Any suggestions on what I should check?

Anyway - Im glad to be here, you seem like a great bunch of people! I hope I can add to this little online community :beer:. Merry Christmas!
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Briano1234
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Re: New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by Briano1234 »

Welcome to cabbyhood. This is a nice friendly place save for the one Arse that is posting as I type.

Can't help you much with the CIS as I am a Digifant kinda owner, but Welcome, some one here will steer you in the right direction.
Briano

Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click.... :screwy:
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Calimus
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Re: New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by Calimus »

Welcome tot TRF MrTea. Brian is right, he's an arse, but then, several of us here are, butt in the right way (pun intended).

I looked at the vid (rather healthy sounded cab you have there) and here is a list of things it might be:

1. O2 sensor (located on the exhaust manifold under the intake mani, real fun to get to sometimes). CIS (this is the type of fuel injection you have) cars read the O2 and when they don't get anything from it, they will idle hunt (that surging rpm that you see an here). Now, I've not dealt with that on normal CIS, only on CIS-E (which comes on the 16v Scirocco) and that generally happens when cold. It will idle hunt for a few min then settle into limp mode which gives reduced power. Normal CIS may not have that, but I'll look into it and let ya know what I find.

2. Vacuum leak or other issue with the vac system. There are vac lines all over that engine bay and in the dash (controls all your vents) and they will be the unraveling of your sanity at times (if you happen to have any sanity to start with that is). A good first order of business is to learn where they all are, and replace every damn last one of them. The peace of mind alone is worth it. There are also a few vac check valve sensors. Sometimes the diaphragm in those fails and could cause symptoms like you have.

3. Thermo-time switch. This bugger is located in the bottom of the front coolant junction coming out of the block, just below the head. The top radiator hose goes into this junction, so that will help you find it. The sensor hanging out the bottom is the one I'm talking about. It reads the coolant temp and send the info back to the ECU to help control how rich/lean the fuel mix needs to be. This also works in conjunction with the O2 sensor which reads how the engine is burning the fuel. Now you see why this issue can be a pain in the arse to track down since there are several components working together to figure the same thing out.

4. Frequency Valve. This awesome little device is on the back side of the fuel distributor (that really funky thing on top of the air box with all the fuel lines coming out of it). When working properly, it should be making a audible buzzing sound and it should be constant. If it cuts in & out or isn't buzzing at all, you definitely have an issue.

5. Auxiliary Air Valve. This unit is on the back of the intake and acts like an air bypass system. If it acts up (and most of us have had them do it), you get all kinds of issues. Hot starting problems, cold starting problems, idle surge, sudden power loss, you name it. Hard to kinda test this one, but most of the time, it's due to either the electrical connection to the valve or a vacc leak in the lines to & from the valve itself.

6. Idle Screw. Hard to believe with all this other crap and fuel injection to boot that there is actually a damn idle air screw on the throttle body. These little buggers are awesome. They have a small o-ring on them that likes to dry out and just vanish. When that happens, the screw then likes to vibrate all over the place and work it's way out till it finally leaves home and leaves you wondering what the hell is wrong with your car. Sometimes though, you get lucky and the o-ring just shrivels up a bit allowing a vac leak. Replace o-ring, adjust screw till things seem to go back to normal.

So, these are the "Usual Suspects". Sadly, there can be more things, but these are some of the more common and easier to look at & figure out. Look into them and post what you find in the Engine section of the forum and we will help you narrow things down and hopefully find the smoking gun. Oh, and don't let that "Oh hell what have I gotten into look?" stay on your face. It looks like a lot, but you will find that as you learn, this really isn't bad at all. And besides, you have us to help you out. We are like a forum, support group and even an intervention group for those times you think about bolting something onto the car that should just never be allowed in proper cabby taste. So but the serious face back on and go start poking around the engine bay a bit and see what you turn up.

Oh, before I forget. To really work on this car you need a "Bentley Manual" if you don't already have one. If you don't, look for them on E-bay, you really will want it. In the mean time, here is link to a PDF version. http://www.toplessrabbit.com/files/VW_C ... IROCCO.pdf

That will help and you can print things out, but nothing beats having the whole book in your hands when you are tracking down an issue and printed copy's, well, they tear up real easy. By the time you go through all the paper and ink to print that bad boy out, you could have bought a used copy. So please do, it's well worth the money.
16' Challenger ScatPack
05' Yamaha FJR1300
02' Honda VTX 1800C
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MrTea
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:37 pm
What year is your cabby?: 1985
Do you own a Cabriolet?: Yes
Location: Van Nuys, CA

Re: New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by MrTea »

WOW! :shock:

Thanks for the welcome you two! And thank you Calimus for taking the time to spell that all out for me! Thats quite the list, but definatly doable. I'll see if any of that fixes it and Ill make a post on the engine forum either way. I'm thinking it might be a vacuum issue because we have been having all sorts of fun with the air system... I had printed out some vacuum diagrams and checked most of the lines without seeing anything out of the ordinary, but changing the air setting dial still seems to do nothing, replacing all the lines is a great suggestion. I also had the good sense to pick up that Bentley manual a month ago, and it has been very helpful.

Thanks again!! :thumbup: Ill keep you posted.
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Briano1234
Whats that smell?
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Re: New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by Briano1234 »

Calimus wrote:Welcome tot TRF MrTea. Brian is right, he's an arse, but then, several of us here are, butt in the right way (pun intended).

I looked at the vid (rather healthy sounded cab you have there) and here is a list of things it might be:

1. O2 sensor (located on the exhaust manifold under the intake mani, real fun to get to sometimes). CIS (this is the type of fuel injection you have) cars read the O2 and when they don't get anything from it, they will idle hunt (that surging rpm that you see an here). Now, I've not dealt with that on normal CIS, only on CIS-E (which comes on the 16v Scirocco) and that generally happens when cold. It will idle hunt for a few min then settle into limp mode which gives reduced power. Normal CIS may not have that, but I'll look into it and let ya know what I find.

2. Vacuum leak or other issue with the vac system. There are vac lines all over that engine bay and in the dash (controls all your vents) and they will be the unraveling of your sanity at times (if you happen to have any sanity to start with that is). A good first order of business is to learn where they all are, and replace every damn last one of them. The peace of mind alone is worth it. There are also a few vac check valve sensors. Sometimes the diaphragm in those fails and could cause symptoms like you have.

3. Thermo-time switch. This bugger is located in the bottom of the front coolant junction coming out of the block, just below the head. The top radiator hose goes into this junction, so that will help you find it. The sensor hanging out the bottom is the one I'm talking about. It reads the coolant temp and send the info back to the ECU to help control how rich/lean the fuel mix needs to be. This also works in conjunction with the O2 sensor which reads how the engine is burning the fuel. Now you see why this issue can be a pain in the arse to track down since there are several components working together to figure the same thing out.

4. Frequency Valve. This awesome little device is on the back side of the fuel distributor (that really funky thing on top of the air box with all the fuel lines coming out of it). When working properly, it should be making a audible buzzing sound and it should be constant. If it cuts in & out or isn't buzzing at all, you definitely have an issue.

5. Auxiliary Air Valve. This unit is on the back of the intake and acts like an air bypass system. If it acts up (and most of us have had them do it), you get all kinds of issues. Hot starting problems, cold starting problems, idle surge, sudden power loss, you name it. Hard to kinda test this one, but most of the time, it's due to either the electrical connection to the valve or a vacc leak in the lines to & from the valve itself.

6. Idle Screw. Hard to believe with all this other crap and fuel injection to boot that there is actually a damn idle air screw on the throttle body. These little buggers are awesome. They have a small o-ring on them that likes to dry out and just vanish. When that happens, the screw then likes to vibrate all over the place and work it's way out till it finally leaves home and leaves you wondering what the hell is wrong with your car. Sometimes though, you get lucky and the o-ring just shrivels up a bit allowing a vac leak. Replace o-ring, adjust screw till things seem to go back to normal.

So, these are the "Usual Suspects". Sadly, there can be more things, but these are some of the more common and easier to look at & figure out. Look into them and post what you find in the Engine section of the forum and we will help you narrow things down and hopefully find the smoking gun. Oh, and don't let that "Oh hell what have I gotten into look?" stay on your face. It looks like a lot, but you will find that as you learn, this really isn't bad at all. And besides, you have us to help you out. We are like a forum, support group and even an intervention group for those times you think about bolting something onto the car that should just never be allowed in proper cabby taste. So but the serious face back on and go start poking around the engine bay a bit and see what you turn up.

Oh, before I forget. To really work on this car you need a "Bentley Manual" if you don't already have one. If you don't, look for them on E-bay, you really will want it. In the mean time, here is link to a PDF version. http://www.toplessrabbit.com/files/VW_C ... IROCCO.pdf

That will help and you can print things out, but nothing beats having the whole book in your hands when you are tracking down an issue and printed copy's, well, they tear up real easy. By the time you go through all the paper and ink to print that bad boy out, you could have bought a used copy. So please do, it's well worth the money.

Yeah what he said..... Gee William that is a hell of a lot of typing....
Briano

Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click.... :screwy:
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Calimus
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Re: New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by Calimus »

MrTea, you're very welcome. If you are having issues with the vent system itself (move selector, nothing happens), listen carefully for a vac leak hiss. If you hear one, it could be the switch that the selector arm connects to. There is a seal in those that goes bad. I think Brian once did a write up on how to try and fix it, but I can't remember for sure. Outside of that, try e-bay & junkyards for a replacement as I think they are NLA, though you might find a dealer somewhere that has one in the dusty depths of their parts bins. However, I doubt you will like the price going that route.

Brian, yea, that was a bit. However, I had just returned home after a quick visit to my local starbucks and I think Cristine had them sneak and extra shot or too into my coffee. I'm still a bit jacked up, though I can feel it wearing off. I'm also trying to do some work on the site itself in between fielding some communications that are work related since those storms that just went through killed power to one of our remote sites in Rome. Seems our CIO's sister in-law's house was partially obliterated as well. So dealing with a few small fires. What a way to start the holiday vacation. :banghead:
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CalAltaDubber
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Re: New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by CalAltaDubber »

Hello Mr. Tea

Welcome to TRF. It seems that Brian and William are taking good care of you.

If you want to learn a bit about how the CIS in your car works, here is a good site http://helpvideos.therustyrabbit.com/Ru ... chool.html

Aside from being good information, this guy is humorus too.
Phil

'87 Cabriolet, "Topless Bunny"
'88 Cabriolet, "Posh Bunny"
'04 Golf
'12 Golf Wagon TDI
'69 Manx type Dune Buggy (New Toy)

Image Image
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Briano1234
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Re: New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by Briano1234 »

If you are using the Bentley to route the vacuum hoses that is part of the issue as it is wrong, here is how they should run.

Image

I have had a issue with the vacuum control where it was broken on the mount, and had to replace it, but William is right that it can get worn out and rubbed flat. I had a grand idea of making a mold and seeing if I could cast it out of silicon, but I got side tracked. My thought was to have one of those "make a stamp stores" cast it out of Rubber.... Still possible and doable... Then it would just be a cut and fit.
Briano

Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click.... :screwy:
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kamzcab86
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Re: New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by kamzcab86 »

Welcome!

William gave you a grand start.

As for the oil light issue: http://www.cabby-info.com/gauges.htm#oil . Test the oil pressure switches as directed.

Engine vacuum: http://www.cabby-info.com/engine.htm#Vacuum .
CalAltaDubber wrote: If you want to learn a bit about how the CIS in your car works, here is a good site http://helpvideos.therustyrabbit.com/Ru ... chool.html
Just ignore the part where he confuses CIS-E with CIS-lambda. :wink:
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MrTea
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Re: New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by MrTea »

Woohoo! :D Thanks guys!

Problem was the Auxiliary Air Regulator - Posted on the engine forum: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2704

You guys rock :beer:

Took her to the beach this past weekend:
20120116_151151.jpg
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Calimus
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Re: New Member - Warm Start/Idle Trouble

Post by Calimus »

Very nice! Glad you were able to get it sorted out. :thumbup: :thumbup:
16' Challenger ScatPack
05' Yamaha FJR1300
02' Honda VTX 1800C
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