Dead 93

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boschbabe
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Dead 93

Post by boschbabe » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:13 pm

My daughter's '93 automatic has been down for over a month now. We had it towed here after it left us stranded on the way to an important engagement around Thanksgiving. At that time it wouldn't rev then died and cranked kind of uneven. It hasn't fired since. I checked the cam timing, pulled the plugs to check for hydrolock, checked spark (good) and sprayed ether. Nothing. I jumped a jumper cable from neg to the engine to check for a bad ground. I tried to check the coolant temp sensor resistance but not sure which one it is. There's a blue one and a black one. Both show 0 ohms. It should say 3000 or so. Don't know if I have it set to the right scale. Worst car I ever owned.

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Briano1234
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Re: Dead 93

Post by Briano1234 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:00 pm

blue is the CTS sensor.
Check the timing of the crank to the cam verify that it is spot on and the dizzy is in the middle of the hash.
Check the spark on all 4 cylinders (charge the battery).
Now you will need to check the fuel pressure...
Is there a loud whine at the rear of the car passenger side.

And you are sure that the main timing belt is moving when you try to crank the car?
Briano

Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
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boschbabe
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Re: Dead 93

Post by boschbabe » Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:29 pm

I checked the center wire only for spark. I will check the others. I checked the cam timing earlier. I noticed that the marks were slightly off but not enough to indicate jumping. I hear the pump running momentarily but don't know if it's pumping anything. I also don't know how to check the in-tank pump. I sprayed ether in the throttle body but didn't have anyone to help. I need to try that again. If I have spark at the plugs, ether in the throttle body and everything is rotating, what might it be?

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Briano1234
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Re: Dead 93

Post by Briano1234 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:41 pm

Having spark, and having gas are good things, but they have to be at the right time. I had a cam gear go wonky, and the car had spark, and fuel but not at the right time. I could be that it has jumped enough it has to be right on and not slightly off.

Check the time. For a car to stop out o the blue is usually a times, or fuel issue. IT the FPR (Fuel Pressure Regulator) goes bad they can cause all the fuel to be put back in the tank and never pressure the injector rail.

This is why I said check the fuel pressure.
Briano

Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click.... :screwy:

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kamzcab86
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Re: Dead 93

Post by kamzcab86 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:43 pm

boschbabe wrote:Worst car I ever owned.
So, a 20-year-old car leaves you stranded because a (probable) 20-year-old component failed, it's taken you over a month to ask for DIY help, and it's now the worst car you've ever owned? :rolleyes: :screwy:

At any rate, when these cars quit suddenly, I always tell folks to check the timing belt first to see if has broken. This could also easily be a fuel system component failure (pumps, pressure regulator, even electrical within the fuel system -- relay, etc.). It could also be, as Brian said, the timing being off.

The blue CTS is inexpensive; if it's the original, I'd just replace it with a new one regardless.

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Briano1234
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Re: Dead 93

Post by Briano1234 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:50 pm

Checking the timing is easy, rotate the engine to 0TDC the tranny, then check the dist is on the middle of the has marks, and the Cam is at 0. If all 3 aren't verified then it isn't in time yet.
Briano

Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click.... :screwy:

boschbabe
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Re: Dead 93

Post by boschbabe » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:28 am

This is the worst car I've ever owned because: It's been down more than it's been up. It was semi-down all summer with a bum cluster that prevented charging. I rigged a exciter circuit so it could be driven but we had no gauges or warning lights except the airbag lights that are permanently illuminated. That was finally fixed with a jumper wire. The rebuilt master cylinder we bought to fix the sinking pedal did the same thing. That was finally replaced. It ran good for a few weeks then it quit on the way to dropping my daughter off at a bus station for a trip back to Boston. My attempt to check the timing was met with marks being a half-tooth off. A faulty temp sensor should not keep a car from running. Why do these things need two fuel pumps? My Haynes manual does not even mention the in-tank unit. The reason for the slows is because thankfully it is an extra car while my daughter is away at college. Plus it doesn't run at all so I can't nose it in to my cluttered garage to work on it out of the weather. I have till Spring Break to fix it. It will probably take that long.

boschbabe
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Re: Dead 93

Post by boschbabe » Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:19 pm

Worked on the cabby a little today. Charged the battery. Had my son spray ether in throttle body while I cranked. Nothing. Checked spark at one plug wire. Has good spark. Checked cam timing previously. Have not checked ign timing but dist is tight and unlikely to move. Never had a POS like this. Ready for fire sale...or fire.

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Briano1234
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Re: Dead 93

Post by Briano1234 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:31 pm

boschbabe wrote:Worked on the cabby a little today. Charged the battery. Had my son spray ether in throttle body while I cranked. Nothing. Checked spark at one plug wire. Has good spark. Checked cam timing previously. Have not checked ign timing but dist is tight and unlikely to move. Never had a POS like this. Ready for fire sale...or fire.
I suppose you need to understand.
The cam being at 0tdc is a good thing.

But until you know that crank too is at 0TDC, with the Cam being at 0TDC, and the Dist rotor being in the middle of the hash mark on the side of the dist housing, you are just guessing.
Briano

Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click.... :screwy:

boschbabe
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Re: Dead 93

Post by boschbabe » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:28 am

I am confident that the cam timing has not slipped although it is a half-tooth off (advanced). As I recall the rotor was at least pointing at the hash mark. That is the next thing I will recheck. It still cranks funny...after a few rotations it stops for a second. Does the airflow sensor cut off ignition when the boot is off (to spray ether)? That is another thing I will check. It is supposed to be 50ish today. I will try to get some pics of the marks.

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Briano1234
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Re: Dead 93

Post by Briano1234 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:47 pm

The boot off is a large unmetered vacuum leak, a big no-no.

Spray the ether in the air box intake low left corner of the airbox.

If the cam is off by a half a tooth, then it isn't in time.
You have to have all 3 marks at the right position, not just the cam.

The fact that you are spraying ether and it isn't trying to fire indicates to me that your timing is off.

Ron's static method is best as you don't need a timing light. http://reflectionsandshadows.com/cabby/static-digi.html
And it verifies the hall sender.

The starter hesitating could be bad grounds or a discharged battery.
Briano

Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click.... :screwy:

boschbabe
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Re: Dead 93

Post by boschbabe » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:22 pm

I took some pics today and will try to get them uploaded. Like I said in my cam timing thread, with the flywheel at 0 the cam is a half-tooth advanced. It can only be moved a tooth at a time. It can't be moved a half-tooth so I have to accept the cam timing as correct. The ign rotor was also slightly advanced (about 4mm from center of hash mark) I thought that might be the problem (as a result of the intermediate shaft being off a tooth) so I rotated the dist to line in up. Now it points slightly right of straight rearward (where the hash mark was). It still didn't start. The secondary shafts being advanced from the crank make no sense. If there was slippage they would be retarded.

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Briano1234
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Re: Dead 93

Post by Briano1234 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:24 pm

Don't worry about he intermediate shafts as the marks are of no concern. Why you ask? Because the majority of them aren't on.

The timing belt being a half tooth off and your dizzy out of wack makes it more imperative that you set the timing correctly.

The dizzy can spin on the intermediate shaft, and aligning all the shafts is a pain in the ass.

You set the crank at 0TDC.
You loosen the Timing belt so that you can set the cam at 0tdc, use the dimple that is on the back of the cam gear, you will have to remove the timing mark cover off of the valve cover to see it. It will be even with the top of the valve cover tin, and not the re-bar. See cabby-info.com for pictures, why? because the timing cover can distort warp with age and fitment. The Cam Dimple on the back can't.

Once you have the came and the tranny at 0 Tighten the belt so that here is only 1/2 twist to it between the intermediate shaft and the cam.

Now that the crank and the cam are at 0, you can loosen the dist and move it to center the rotor to the middle of the hash. If you run out of movement, you remove the Dizzy, and slip it one tooth, then re-insert it into the block.... This is the reason that the shaft marks hardly ever line up.

We have to be sure that you are at 0 time.....

Here is a stripped timing belt vid...... similar to what you are having.
Image

Cars need Fuel air and spark at the correct time to run.
Briano

Yes as matter of fact, I have the Luck o'the Irish...everything I touch turns to fertilizer of the bovine variety.
You can lead a user to a link, but you can't make him Click.... :screwy:

boschbabe
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Re: Dead 93

Post by boschbabe » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:29 pm

If I retard the belt one tooth it will be a half-tooth off in the other direction. I don't see how that would fix the problem. And I don't see how the cam could be ahead of the crank. Plus my belt is in good shape and bends to 90 degrees. Plus I had a wrench on the cam gear to get the final few degrees to line up the marks. Surely it would have slipped then with the backwards gear reduction turning against compression. I am 100 percent certain that the cam or ignition timing did not cause the no-run problem.

boschbabe
Posts: 112
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What year is your cabby?: 1993
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Re: Dead 93

Post by boschbabe » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:09 am

http://www.flickr.com/photos/66986734@N ... 767601804/ These pics show the cam being slightly advanced but not enough to change. I don't understand how it could be this way.

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