Strange Idle

[PDX Cabby]

wow, WA doesn't allow the range of RPMs that OR does then. Here they told me anywhere from 900-1200.

crazy.

But, of course, we don't get the rolling 25yo drop-off.


As mentioned DO NOT USE BRAKE CLEANER. It's really some horrible stuff, and if there's a trace amount of argon in the air (say, welder), and the brake cleaner ignites, it'll kill you. Long story, but it doesn't take much...

I'd suggest inspecting the AAV for leaks and proper operation. When starting your car first thing in the morning, the AAV will be feeding extra air into the system until it's warmed up. An easy test is to unplug it and see how long it takes before the idle drops down. If things do not change at all, then it's fine, and not the problem.

After things have warmed up a bit, and you start experiencing issues, then its time to think more about fueling. I'd give the WUR/CPR a cleaning and give it a go again.

[VDubbinIt]

As mentioned DO NOT USE BRAKE CLEANER. It's really some horrible stuff, and if there's a trace amount of argon in the air (say, welder), and the brake cleaner ignites, it'll kill you. Long story, but it doesn't take much...

I went to the parts store and got a crazy look from the guys when I asked for non flammable carb cleaner. They said you actually need flammable stuff to check for leaks unless you have someone at the tail pipe looking for white smoke. They also said that carb cleaner is more flammable than brake cleaner...

[gull]

I went to the parts store and got a crazy look from the guys when I asked for non flammable carb cleaner. They said you actually need flammable stuff to check for leaks unless you have someone at the tail pipe looking for white smoke. They also said that carb cleaner is more flammable than brake cleaner...

The carb cleaner is flammable too, it's just meant to be burned, unlike brake cleaner. One of its uses is to spray it into the carburetor of a running engine to help clean it out...you wouldn't want to do that with something that wouldn't burn.

Really you could use almost any spray liquid, even WD40, but carb cleaner is nice because it's volatile and evaporates instead of leaving a mess.

[VDubbinIt]

What is the AAV? I did have a pretty bad oil leak from my camshaft gasket working its way out so there is a lot of oil that built up from the belts spraying it everywhere....

Another note, the PCV valve is missing. There is a rubber hose loosely pushed onto the valve cover and the other tube is just pushed into the rubber hose. I've looked for the part but it seems I'm going to have to find one at a junk yard. When I replaced the valve cover gasket (which of course isn't sealed properly at the moment because I'm an amateur and need to get a rubber one) I scrubbed the valve cover and cleared out a bunch of built up crud that was in the filter grid where the pcv hose comes in. I'm wondering if maybe that is allowing too much air into the engine since I don't have the actual pcv valve?

Does anybody know off hand what size the o-rings are for the idle speed screw and the fuel injectors?

[Briano1234]

There is no real PVC valve on the engines, the hose on the throttle body goes over directly to the Valve cover. If that hose is broken that is in the pic, you need to get it replaced.

The size of that o-ring don't know, but I have taken it to the "good" hardware store and matched it.

[gull]

Two things:

- That hose connection is totally screwed up, as you guessed. You should have a rubber elbow there. One branch is a thick hose that goes to the air box, the other is a thin hose that goes to the intake manifold. What happens is the rubber elbow gets soft from oil mist and then splits, making the car run like crap and puking oil all over the top of the engine. Obviously this "repair" was someone's attempt to fix that. Unfortunately the elbow is a dealer-only part. For testing purposes you can plug the hose to the manifold with something (say, a golf tee) to stop the vacuum leak. The hose to the air box will still vent the crankcase adequately. Note that the plastic coupler in the small line is critical, so don't lose it -- it has an orifice in it that keeps the engine from sucking too much air through the PCV system. With the line connected and no orifice the engine will refuse to idle properly no matter how carefully it's tuned. Been there, done that.

- I really, really don't like that braided fuel hose when used as vacuum hose. It's prone to developing cracks, which you can't see because of the braid. It makes leaks that are really hard to track down. I'd buy a length of proper rubber vacuum hose the same size and replace that stuff anywhere you have it. It'll only cost you a few bucks and it'll save you all kinds of grief in the future.

Oh, one more:

- Front and center on the intake manifold is a plastic check valve for the brake booster. Some of the vacuum lines tee off this. Be very, very gentle handling this part. They get brittle with age and new ones are no longer available.

[VDubbinIt]

Feeling a little defeated... I got a can of carb cleaner and sprayed all the places you guys have said, it does seem that the fuel injectors (specifically the 3rd one on the right) need new o-rings, tried to get them out and can't. Also tried to take my valve cover off to replace the cork gasket with a rubber one and a couple of the nuts are stripped... tried getting those off and can't. The idle boost valve seems to not be working anymore.

One good thing is I managed to find the rubber elbow for the PCV hose and that did help with the fishing idle during start up. I also got some new vacuum hose and replaced all of the lines.

Current running status; still dies as soon as its started unless the gas peddle is held and revved for about 30 seconds to a minute; idles fairly low during warm up but at a steady speed; seems like I'm possibly going through gas faster than I should (which I know could be due to the idle speed but I don't feel it is). I haven't adjusted the idle yet to where it should be so no update on that.

At this point I feel hopeless.

[gull]

Sorry, man...these cars can be really frustrating sometimes.

The fuel injectors are a bear to get out if they haven't been out in a long time. The rubber seems to bond to the aluminum. You have to be careful heaving on them too hard, too; I had the tip come off one and stay in the intake, once.

I think the injector seals would have to be pretty far gone to cause the symptoms you're talking about, though. Usually they just cause a little idle instability...

Valve cover gasket: Do the nuts turn and go nowhere, or did you round them off? If it's the former, is the stud turning with the nut, or is the nut spinning on the stud?

[VDubbinIt]

The nut just spins and goes nowhere. I have to take the studs out anyway to install the shoulder-less ones so I tried turning those with vice grips thinking I can just take out the whole stud and nothing. Can't get it to budge at all...

[gull]

I got all the nuts off, but had a heck of a time trying to get some of the studs out of mine. Eventually I just carefully cut the metal washers out of the gasket holes where I couldn't get the shouldered studs out, and it didn't leak. The big win with the rubber gasket is the integrated cam tower section and cam plug, I think.

I think the problem is the steel tends to corrosion-bond to the aluminum after a while. Almost every steel bolt I've ever taken out of an aluminum casting has been stuck tight, then come loose with a sudden snap.

[eric4321]

On my 93 I used PB Blaster and soaked the studs for a while before I tried to remove them. I had to get the vice grips very very tight on the studs. Also some will call me crazy but are you using genuine vice grip brand vice grips? When I worked on the engine room of a ship one of my coworkers told me don't even waste your time with non vice grip brand. Through the years I have found his advice very true. Be careful and take your time. I know you want to get the car running well but it is a process. On CIS injectors I have pulled them from 3 engines and only on 1 have I not had an injector break on me. On my parts car I got 3 out of 4 out and the last one the injector broke in the haed. The other day I was pulling them out of a junk yard engine I picked up and had 3 out of 4 break and the last one left a tip. I would not pull injectors unless you must.

[Briano1234]

The big win with the rubber gasket is the integrated cam tower section and cam plug, I think.

Oh Yeah baby...................

I think the problem is the steel tends to corrosion-bond to the aluminum after a while. Almost every steel bolt I've ever taken out of an aluminum casting has been stuck tight, then come loose with a sudden snap.

Dissimilar metals corrode, and that is a fact. Go back with never-seize on the new studs and you will never have an issue.

[gull]

So did you ever get this car sorted out? I meant to check back on you, but we decided to move to a new apartment and I've been drowning in cardboard boxes for the last two weeks.

[VDubbinIt]

I mostly fixed the timing and have been dealing with all the other issues and today finally changed the camshaft oil seal. I had to figure out earlier how to line the crankshaft up with the other two marks for the timing.. that was frustrating but it seems good and is at least close enough that the car seems to be running fine and possibly better than before. I plan on taking it to a shop now just to have them double check and/or adjust it further since I'm done with that.
So now the next priority is the leaking front valve cover. I still haven't managed to get the nuts off of the studs to be able to change the gasket. I may have a shop do that too when I get money because I'm a) not skilled and/or strong enough to get them out with vice grips and b) afraid of them snapping off in the head.

I'd still like to meet up sometime. It would be nice to have a "healthy" cabby to compare to and also be able to converse with someone more experienced. Let me know if you'd be interested...

Thanks!